The trouble with “wife aggro”
I need to start this off by being real: I was invited to speak on a panel at PAX Prime. The proposal was titled “Women in a Virtual World: How Gender Roles Can Affect Your Elf” and it was specifically by, for, and about women (who tend to be drastically underrepresented in conferences, and especially gaming spaces). My particular focus was to be about being gamingmom: balancing society’s view of “good mother” with “holy shit hardcore gaming takes a lot of time and effort” and how that momitude reflects in gaming spaces like MMOs.
When the panel submission was denied, I figured I would just spend some time talking here about what I intended to discuss at PAX. I have some public appearance issues anyway and actually getting to PAX would have been really challenging (I really super like my kid and I couldn’t have taken her with me, for example), so it was better this way, right? Right?
Well, yesterday (more specifically, last night) that all kind of changed.
This is because last night I learned that while “Women in a Virtual World” was denied, on the PAX schedule posted yesterday was “Wife Aggro, Career Obligations, and Time Constraints: How to Play While Meeting Life’s Demands.”
Now, I know I have a little bit of bias because my panel about the same fucking thing without the terrible title was denied, but y’all, seriously: Wife Aggro
Wife Aggro
Wife Aggro
Surely you will have a heart attack and die of unsurprise when I tell you that this particular panel was proposed and will be moderated by a man.
So let’s talk a little bit about my BURNING SEARING WHITE-HOT RAEG!!1 here, shall we?
It’s needlessly exclusionist.
When you title your panel “Wife Aggro,” what you are saying is that this is a place for dudes and that women (unless they’re committed monogamous lesbians from one of a handful of US states or Canada, I guess?) are not invited, because you’re going to be talking about Bitches, Amirite?. You might as well put up a sign that proclaims you the He-Man Woman Hater’s Club and that girls have cooties and also you have the emotional maturity of eight year-olds, because really, you guys? REALLY?
It’s misogynist as hell.
WIVES ARE TOTAL FUNKILLERS, YOU GUYS. WOMEN HATE FUN AND ESPECIALLY HATE WHEN YOU HAVE FUN AND WILL GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO RUIN IT. BITCHES, AMIRITE.
How is this attitude still so prevalent. How. HOW. “Wife Aggro” is basically code for “I don’t know how to treat my partner as a human being with her own individual thoughts and feelings, and her desire, no matter how banal, is less important than mine.” You know who else acts like this, like what they want is most important and they don’t give a shit what you want or need, or how to generally behave like a cooperative human being? My kid. BECAUSE SHE’S TWO. AND SHE ONLY DOES IT WHEN SHE’S GRUMPY.
Do you really want your behavior to be unfavorably compared to a toddler’s? Do you?
It’s straight-up fucking wrong.
Dear dudebros: I was the hardcore raider in my family. Not Mr. Aro. Me. So you can take your “wife aggro” and you can go fuck yourselves. I know y’all are so scared about getting the cooties into your clubhouse and you’re scared that vaginas are communicable diseases or some shit, but there are a lot of gamers who identify as women, and there are a lot of women gamers who have successful romantic and emotional partnerships. Continuing to refer to “wife aggro” completely erases women like me (and there are many women like me; I am friends with several!) who are the predominant gamers in our relationships.
I know PA is run by garbage nightmares and the whole thing is full of hatey dudebros and fnarg blee blee blorp, but I keep hoping that someone somewhere will have an epiphany and realize that there is A PROBLEM, and they NEED TO FIX IT. Unfortunately, instead of that, what I get is the Wife Aggro panel guy searching twitter for people talking about this and giving folks a pile of condescending bullshit about how it’s really super inclusive, honest and people are just being totally unfair!
So, if one were to, say, give the benefit of the doubt and assume in good faith that yes, this is about how all people can balance their virtual world and physical world commitments, why in gods name would you give it a dismissive and exclusionary title? This person specifically chose that title, specifically chose to be associated with that phrase, specifically chose to make that the manner in which other people would find and be exposed to his ideas. Not cool. No dice, dude.
Here’s the thing: gaming is not some special snowflake hobby that requires unique management skills to integrate into your life. Before the gup was born, I was not only a hardcore raider, but also heavily involved in community theatre, which is a huge time commitment; I’ve also played sports, managed eleventy hojillion virtual communities, been a member of a beer-tasting group, played on trivia teams, and attended a weekly knitalong. All of these things require time management skills and communication with a partner who doesn’t necessarily share those interests. I even occasionally make up my own mind about what TV shows to watch without him! Can you believe my nerve?
As an aside, dude is asking women to educate him. Not cool. No dice, dude.
I asked him if he had any specific articles in mind, because while most of the literature of this stripe tends to be gross, dismissive, mansplainy bullshit that throws around gender roles like it’s fucking rugby or some shit I’m sure it’s totally possible for there to be something written that explores how to share things you like with new people without being total garbage douchebags about it. I just … well, I’ve never read it, because the kinds of people who would write something like that also know that it’s really very simple: JUST INVITE SOMEONE TO SHARE A THING YOU LIKE, AND IF THEY DON’T LIKE IT LET IT GO AND MOVE ON. Unfortunately, he had no specific examples, and still wants a woman to tell him how shit is wrong. Not cool. No dice, dude.
This is like Blackface Up With Whitey Author Lady who says that judging a book by its cover is just like racism for reals. Dude. Your panel has a sexist title. People are going to think you are a sexist jerkbag. WORDS, THEY MEAN THINGS. I am totally sorry that you has a sad because people are calling you out on it. Oh no wait, I’m not sorry at all. Because bringing up your feelings about how unfair it is that you’re being judged for marginalizing women? Not cool. No dice, dude.
BONUS ROUND:
Dear dudes: yeah, the patriarchy’s not so good to you either. It’s really not cool, huh?
An important footnote: I suppose you could use “wife aggro” as a descriptor for my family, but it would be specifically used to describe JESUS FUCK ARE YOU USING YOUR GODDAMN COOLDOWNS BECAUSE GOD DAMN IT STOP PULLING EVERYTHING IN THE FUCKING ROOM AT ONCE WHAT THE GODDAMN HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU
uh, i hate to say this for fear of being labelled 'sexist', but i think you may be overreacting a bit. when i first read the title i took it as a joke. 'wife aggro' is a common expression among mmorpg players, and most everyone is familiar with the idea behind it. when i used to play world of warcraft, people would say it and not really mean that their wife was aggravating them or anything; it was just another way of saying 'be back later, life beckons'. granted there are better ways of saying this that don't call gender roles into play, but none that are used as much as 'wife aggro'. point being; you may be lashing out at this guy too harshly when he's not really to blame for the overall problem of the phrase 'wife aggro'.
don't get me wrong; i understand your problem and i empathize. i think it's pretty messed up that PAX shot your panel down while this guy's was perfectly fine for whatever reason. but i don't think writing long, rambling, hateful essays is the way to fix this issue.
the guy already said that the panel wouldn't be just about guys anyway. let's all just calm down and see if djfanco will change the title to something less hurtful without yelling at him.
Woot! First comment plays the "you're overracting" card! And also the "Just calm down" card. You uppity women and your FEELINGS.
Seriously dude, just stop.
I can say this for certain: I'd definitely have attended a panel called "Women in a Virtual World: How Gender Roles Can Affect Your Elf" and I would most definitely not attend a panel called "Wife Aggro, Career Obligations, and Time Constraints: How to Play While Meeting Life’s Demands."
Why? Because the former is inclusive. The latter informs me that *I* am the problem here, I am a Wife, therefore I am the "bad guy" – it doesn't matter intent (IT'S NOT MAGICAL), it's basically putting me on the defensive from the get-go. If I DARED to speak up at the latter panel, I'd be afraid of being dismissed out of hand, mocked, or just accused of causing said "Wife Aggro." It's built into the panel name!
The former tells me, as a woman, how I can think about the problems. The latter tells me it's aimed at men (there's no mention of women or equal sexes anywhere in that) and how they can tell their wives/girlfriends, "Not now honey, I'm raiding." Where am I in the panel name? I'm the aggro.
my larger point with my post is that djfanco might not have put as much thought into his panel title that you seem to think he did. yes, i acknowledge that the title is, in essence, sexist, but should he be made fun of publicly for it, especially if he didn't realize how hurt some people would be by it? there are people out there who use the phrase without considering how hurtful it can be.
"I didn't think" is not a justification for thoughtlessness; it's pretty much tautological for thoughtlessness. If someone can't take being mocked for being a thoughtless asshole, perhaps they should spend a little more time thinking and a little less time proposing obviously sexist panels.
My recent post Readercon: On "Socially Awkward"
"It was just another way of saying 'be back later, life beckons'."
Yeah, a -sexist- way of saying that, invented by guys. saying 'everyone I know says it!' is not a justification.
My recent post [Should 'AAA' Game Studios Die?]
i agree. this is why i think djfanco should change the title. i just have a problem with the level of rage on display here. the problem might be fixed faster with civility!
Generally speaking, people who are doing really shitty things get told their things are shitty. Then they go on and on about how calling shitty behaviour "shitty" is soooooo ruuuuuuude and why can't you be nice about telling them that that is Just Not On.
There is no nice way of saying "Stop being a catastrophic asshole." Niceness was thrown out the window to start out with. By the asshole.
My recent post Readercon: On "Socially Awkward"
how was he being an asshole? am i missing something djfanco said?
Naming a panel "wife aggro" is being an asshole. If you're not clear on why that is, please reread Aro's post.
My recent post Readercon: On "Socially Awkward"
it seems you're not clear on why i take issue with her post. djfanco might not have fully understood what he was saying when he named his panel with a silly internet phrase that has something to do with the topic of said panel.
No, you've been perfectly clear. You think that there should be more "respect" in the conversation, and for some reason you're thinking that the people who were randomly dissed and actively excluded by this panel should be the ones providing it, as opposed to the person who opened up with a wide-ranging public insult.
Somehow, the fact that this insult was potentially unintentional and came about because he didn't "put that much thought into" it means that the people who were insulted should turn around and offer respect that they never received.
My recent post Readercon: On "Socially Awkward"
You're saying that Aro has a responsibility to craft her words in a respectful manner but djfanco doesn't have that responsibility.
If you're going to give a panel on gender issues, you should take time and effort to research and think through the topic before you name it. "Not fully understanding" is synonymous with "not thinking".
My recent post Back on the market
Since you're new here, I will help you out: there's actually not rage on display here. This is how I talk. Every post is like this. That's how it works.
@tortoiseontour – there isn't as much actual hate and anger on display in this original blog post as you might think, it's more along the lines of resigned frustration and sadness with a big dash of hot sauce. The language is largely meant to bring attention to the problem and highlight just how frustrating it is, and it does that very successfully. I think the term "RAEG!!1" early on instead of actual "RAGE" is meant to highlight this. :)
I think this is exactly the issue at the heart of all this. The fact that it has become the default term for "I have other stuff going on" instead of something more reasonable like, "One sec, have to handle something." or "I'm going to go spend some time with my kid." is at the heart of the matter. Beside the fact that it doesn't actually convey any useful information, it is overly dismissive of the people involved. Everyone complains about their S.O. or friends or family members or boss or co-worker or whatever, and that's fine. It's not even necessarily a problem to say, "My wife/husband/kid/friend/mom wants me to do something and I don't want to do it, blargh blargh blargh". and then log off. It just really becomes an issue when it becomes the default term for any inconvenience.
It's compounded, in this case, by being part of a panel at a major event (where I'm certain there were many other similar panels to choose from in the life/hobby balance arena) – and one which theoretically ought to be focused on bringing the community together in spirit and attitude. The fact that the first words in the panel title can potentially make a large section of the community feel marginalized and excluded is a major issue. There are hundreds of ways to have exactly the same panel while implying that people stay away who aren't insiders in the "Yeah don't all wives suck?!" club.
agreed; one of the reasons i've never said it. 'brb' or 'bbl' work infinitely better.
Here is a tip: nothing good ever comes after the "but" in "I'm not sexist but…" so just stop right there.
So let's break this down for everyone playing along at home.
Basically everything you have said in this comment is terrible, as other commenters have noted. You are being dismissive, condescending, and mansplainy; you are contributing to the problem.
Here is the big thing that hasn't been already covered by others: it should be noted that I really do not give a shit about djfanco's feelings, he does not read my blog, I have not exhorted him to come read my blog, and I did not engage with him; HE searched twitter to find people talking about his panel. I don't even know the dude. I didn't know the dude when I (along with several others) said "Really, PAX? 'Wife Aggro' panel? Really?"
Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned the Women in Gaming panel rejection at all, because it's not about baww baww how come he gets to play and I don't bawwwwww; it's about why this panel, specifically, is part of a much larger, more systemic problem in our culture.
Also, for bonus points: do not ever tell people how to feel. Just don't. It's neither your right nor your place.
>Also, for bonus points: do not ever tell people how to feel. Just don't. It's neither your right nor your place.
Immensely agreed.
I think that using a term like "mansplaining" dowsn't work well when you're complaining about a person using a term like "wife aggro"? It seems to me that the word (mansplaining) suggests that this is standard behaviour for men – and men ONLY – and probably ALL men – stupid dudebros the lot of them amirite?
Oh my gracious, I had no idea that terms like "mansplaining" and "dudebro" had been used to oppress those poor downtrodden men over the centuries.
Oh that's right, because they haven't.
Look, I know it's kind of a lot, but if you really want to have a conversation with me I need you to be willing to read all of the words. Otherwise, what you're doing is some delicious mansplaining of your own by telling a woman she's wrong about sexism. Thank you for giving me bonus points in Derailment Bingo, though, that's awesome. :D
Oh my gracious, I had no idea that terms like "wife aggro" had been used to oppress those poor downtrodden women over the centuries.
Amazing how it works both ways…
In fact yes, terms like "wife aggro" (though naturally not that specifically) have in fact been used to oppress women from time immemorial. That is the point.
Men are not an oppressed minority. They never have been and they never will be. A man is afraid a woman will laugh at him; a woman is afraid a man WILL KILL HER. That is what "systemic problem" means.
Is that really your concern here? That guys that use "wife aggro" will murder you?
In fact, yes. The same kinds of dudes who think it’s totally kosher to use sexist phrases in casual conversation are the same ones who support a culture of violence against women. Thanks for playing!
That's about as valid an assertion as the one gamers always hear that "people that play violent games are the same ones that go and commit violent acts".
Do you have any hard evidence or statistics to back up your assertion that saying "wife aggro" leads to murder? If not, I'm sure there a number of logical fallacies I can pull out that apply here, just as you like to do so often.
If you would like some references as to whether or not people who commit violent acts against women also use sexist language, you can start here.
I'd have thought that someone who constantly falls back to pointing out logical fallacies would have understood the meaning of "causation, not correlation".
In fact causation does create correlation.
What I think you mean to say is 'correlation is not causation', but that's really dumb and makes no sense, considering that "men perform populationally disproportionate violence against women" is a statement of fact, not conjecture.
No, what I said is perfectly fine. In other words, I'm looking for "causation, not correlation".
Your statement of fact regarding the disproportionate amount of violence from men upon women may be true, but does absolutely nothing to prove that using the term "wife aggro" is causative of murder. The reality is that you're wrong. There is no evidence to show that phrases like "wife aggro" have a causative relationship with murder and violence.
I'll repeat myself – it's as bullshit of a claim as "people that play violent games are the same ones that go and commit violent acts".
“Wife aggro” is a loaded, sexist phrase.
Men who use loaded, sexist phrases also tend to support violence against women.
I bet you think having sex with a drunk girl is totally hot.
[I am too lazy to look up references or statistics for violence against women so I insist that misogyny does not actually exist and encourage that violence. I absolutely insist that a woman do this work for me so that I can dismiss her claims more specifically because I personally am too ridiculously privileged and ignorant to accept that perhaps hating on women and treating them as lesser beings might possibly have something to do with 25% of all women experiencing sexual violence in their lifetimes.
Additionally, like many men who engage in sexist behaviors (and violence against women) I am absolutely certain that I am entitled to a woman's attention even when she has specifically asked me to leave her alone.
I'm an outstanding human being!]
-mod-edited for clarity
Doesn't wash. You can't work toward better gender equality by continuing to use gender-inequal language. If, for no other reason, that approximately half of your audience now has a BIG RED FLAG that this panel may not be a safe space for them to come participate, and the other half now has a big invite for all the douchebags to show up and cry about how girls are ruining their gaming.
My recent post Back on the market
Just because something is common parlance in gaming culture doesn't make it acceptable.
"I raped that mob!"
"That's so gay!"
You get the idea. We SHOULD be challenging stuff like "wife aggro" instead of just letting it slip into vocabulary.
My recent post Anticipating, Planning, and Other GM Stuff
So jokingly complaining about your wife is on the same level as using "gay" as a derogatory term or making lite or rape?
This is kind of a disingenuous slippery slope argument. Yes, the dismissive, othering qualities of "wife aggro" as a Thing are in the same Thing Family as other dismissive, othering phrases. However, the relative severity isn't the point, and not what I'm talking about here. I ALSO fight against other dismissive, othering phrases — but this particular post, at this particular time, is about why "wife aggro" is bullshit.
Yeah, you know, this guy has picked up some wife aggro. Not his wife, of course, but all those married women who game who think that being explicitly excluded from the community is not all that charming. It's pretty unreasonable to expect a tank to hold focus when you want to blow all your "spouting off bullshit" cooldowns at once. Seriously, guys, moderate your Dumbassery Per Second if you don't want to pull aggro, don't you know thing one about playing World of Internet with the grownups?
My recent post Readercon: On "Socially Awkward"
"Dumbassery Per Second" Brilliant, just plain brilliant. Your comment was delightfully on point, but that phrase right there required me to step away from the computer for a sec and stop laughing.
As a stereotypical white male gamer, personally, I think she's right. It does not surprise me at all that this comes from a PAX announcement, as absurd as it is that they would deny other female gamer driven lifestyle panels in favor of something like this.
But this isn't really about that. I think it's more about the casualness with which we as gamers have come to accept terms like "wife aggro". It seems cheap to try to throw an excuse like "well it's been around for years and everyone uses it" to explain what is obviously a gender driven comment. Sure, it has been used for a long time, but society should be capable of evolving PAST such things.
Personally I think the easiest way to look at it is this: gender labeling aside, can this phrase be reversed? What would happen if someone started commenting in a game "omg husband aggro, bbl!!"?
Most of the time, all hell would break loose, that is what would happen. If she were playing entirely with friends and family then it would be safe of course, but on the mainstream internet? This would label the person as one of two things – either a female gamer or a homosexually oriented male gamer, and BOTH of these demographics are going to be subjected to nonstop harassment from most gaming communities. Most would probably assume that it is a girl gamer, and immediately the idiotic comments would start to ramp up – asking where she lives, is she hot, where's her webcam, bullshit like that. Anyone who thinks this is inaccurate just needs to do a few google searches and they'll see.
I just don't understand why Twitter dude's response was not "You're right, it really should be Spouse Aggro, or Life Aggro, since it's about balancing gaming with Family/Real Life, not about balancing gaming and Your Angry Wife."
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"Life Aggro" would have been perfect. He should have consulted you for naming, Rades!
People who always manage to find the right words for things: you.
Thanks for being you, Rades. <3
Yeah, first commenter gets a link to http://www.derailingfordummies.com/menu.html and thrown into the pool, IMO.
FYI – he just changed the title of the panel: https://twitter.com/djfanco/status/23362892965782…
Awesome! You are still pretty dramatically missing the point, which is how and why the term is problematic, but I am glad to see the panel title change.
Also, I am going to in good faith assume that you are not spamming my blog by replying to several comments with this exact same text, and instead accidentally clicked 'submit comment' multiple times. Please only click once in the future.
I wouldn't feel welcome at that panel. As a matter of fact, I'd feel pretty uncomfortable. I have to imagine that with the title of the panel being "wife aggro," there would be a lot of jokes made about women, wives, marriage, and female gamers. I'm not into sitting in on a panel where I'm the punchline of the joke. The atmosphere would be terribly unpleasant, to say the least.
Yes, exactly! The problem is that gaming culture is a hostile space for women, and continuing to belabor the point that the wife is the aggro lol funny rite is part of that very serious problem.
It's sad that your response to this rejection isn't to rally and work on your proposal for next year instead of pointing to an accepted panel and shouting "PROBLEMATIC".
You sound pretty bitter that your proposal was rejected. Improve yourself. Own your failures. Don't pawn them off on THE PATRIARCHY or troll twitter.
Congratulations on missing the point! This is not about Liore's panel proposal getting rejected. It's about the phrase "wife aggro." I only mentioned the Women In Gaming panel for context, and to be upfront that I had more than one horse in the race.
Thanks for stopping by! :)
Hey, you know what's problematic? Telling other people not to point out the actually problematic bullshit in the world.
Not pointing out the problematic shit does nothing to improve anyone. It doesn't make me a better person to ignore problematic shit. It doesn't make participants in the problematic shit any less ill-informed, thoughtless, or hostile. It doesn't improve the atmosphere of the event for the minority the problematic shit is about, and it doesn't address the root of the problematic shit. Literally all that ignoring problematic shit does– LITERALLY ALL IT DOES– is make the problematic shit more comfortable for the people perpetuating it.
And guess what? As the minority, IT IS NOT MY JOB TO MAKE YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE. People with problematic shit in their worldview need to be TOLD that it is problematic. That is how we get less problematic shit.
Now go ahead. Tell me I'm bitter that I don't have my own blog to point problematic shit out on. See how far that gets you.
I will admit I have used the term "Wife Aggro" before, but over time it transitioned in the guild I ran to generally be "spouse aggro". Mostly because over the 8 year run of House Stalwart, at any given point we had somewhere between 40% and 60% ratio of women in the guild. Most of them far more serious than their husbands, about World or Warcraft or whatever game we happened to be playing.
Either version was never used as a way to spur on a spousal bitch fest, but just as a quick way of saying "Look something has come up, I have to go deal with it, sorry but I am stepping afk". As a guild made up of mostly 30 somethings, it happened a lot, as did kid aggro, or work aggro. Shit comes up, you gotta deal with it, and folks in the same phase of their life completely understand.
I always hate when something like this happens… firstly because it is sheer jackassery and just keeps perpetuating the popular culture myth that all gamers are male ages 15-25… secondly because it paints the male gamers that happen to not be brogamer douchebags with the same broad brush. Yeah…. i've lost the ability to string together proper and coherent sentences… time to get happy reading some lolcats.
My recent post Reverberating the Praise
And *I* am sad for your reading comprehension, facepalmer! May I suggest that you own your failure of not actually reading what Aro wrote and improve yourself in time to troll again next year. TYIA.
PS: It was my proposal and yes, I am a little bitter about not getting in. <3
My recent post Women in a Virtual World: a failed PAX panel postmortem
My reading comprehension is just fine, thanks.
Also, Aro seemed to leave one of her tweets out of the tirade.
"@djfanco Here's the thing: at least one panel about exactly that, *without* the hurtful title, proposed and modded by women, was denied."
The simple fact is that those two panel proposals are not about the same thing. @Djfanco's is about time management, yours was about gender roles. Perhaps Aro know of a third proposal about time management modded by women that was denied?
You may have strong feelings about the phrase "wife aggro", but the time management guy doesn't seem to. After all, he already got the topic changed and even responded to the tweets with a level of class that you could learn a thing or two from.
Work on your proposal for next year, don't toss sour grapes at this dude. That attitude may play well in the "safe spaces" it's no way to win friends or influence people.
Good luck!
Using words like "tirade" when a woman talks about sexism is part of the fine family of gaslighting products, used to dismiss her arguments as being "crazy" and "overemotional." Don't do this.
I actually left several tweets out of the post, because they weren't relevant to the discussion. This is about the use of "wife aggro" as a sexist and othering phrase. It's even right there in the title: The trouble with "wife aggro". It is not about this dude. It is about use of the phrase, especially use of the phrase without even thinking about how harmful it is. It's about how even the internalized, unconscious sexism makes places threatening and dismissive to women. It's about how women-identified gamers exist, too, and deserve a space at the table.
Also, it is totally possible to be working on next year's proposal and call out sexism in what has become a more and more hostile space. I know this might come as a surprise to people, but it is totally possible for a woman to work on more than one thing at once. Shocking, right?
We have a right to be unhappy with something and to voice this unhappiness, thanks. It doesn't matter that both the panels are about different things! The fact remains that PAX rejected one panel about gender roles entirely, then approved another panel with an exclusionary title. It was doubly reinforcing the idea that women aren't welcome in their convention that is about gaming. Their mentality is that we are nags or mobs that need to be put down. Does that make sense, and do you believe we shouldn't be welcome?
Do you feel welcome when your presence alone is labeled as aggravating? Even jokingly? By someone you don't know at all?
Also, the panel's title wouldn't have been so classily changed if someone (namely, this person you are accusing of trolling and being NOT NICE OMG SOB SOB) hadn't pointed it out as problematic.
Thanks, now go cry about how you're horribly oppressed because someone doesn't think the same jokes you like are all that funny. Which, coincidentally, you can tell in a 'safe place' like a bro bar, but aren't really suitable for public consumption.
[...] Mr. Panelist had in mind) and women just don’t get it, amirite? Arolaide has already done a way better write up of why this is so irritating than I can, so go read [...]
Hey, you know what’s problematic? Telling other people not to point out the actually problematic bullshit in the world.
Not pointing out the problematic shit does nothing to improve anyone. It doesn’t make me a better person to ignore problematic shit. It doesn’t make participants in the problematic shit any less ill-informed, thoughtless, or hostile. It doesn’t improve the atmosphere of the event for the minority the problematic shit is about, and it doesn’t address the root of the problematic shit. Literally all that ignoring problematic shit does– LITERALLY ALL IT DOES– is make the problematic shit more comfortable for the people perpetuating it.
And guess what? As the minority, IT IS NOT MY JOB TO MAKE YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE. People with problematic shit in their worldview need to be TOLD that it is problematic. That is how we get less problematic shit.
Now go ahead. Tell me I’m bitter that I don’t have my own blog to point problematic shit out on. See how far that gets you.
Oh, gaming industry misogyny, please go away. This is why we can't have nice things.
(Seriously, seriously awesome post, Arolaide. Thumbs up.)
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Thank you!
This is mostly unrelated to the entirety of the post (it and the comments already here sum up how I feel about it, really, but I do want to thank you for this:
[...] but there are a lot of gamers who identify as women [...]
I don't know that most people would notice it, but as someone who identifies as male and doesn't have the looks or the voice to match most people's assumptions on what that means, it means a LOT to me that you included ALL women, not just women who were assigned that gender at their birth.
My recent post Three Years, Nine Players, One Happy Bear (and her happy Pally)
You are so very welcome! It's important to me to remember that this is about all women (and all men), because by definition being inclusive means that we remember everyone, not just people who conform to societal assumptions. I don't think anything will ever get better if we don't keep in mind that we're all in this together, you know?
Good post and very important. Gaming as a wider hobby won't change for the better if people ignore this stuff. I have always hated the smack-talk and general "bunch of guys in a bar" style language that is used a lot in so many online games. This bad choice by the PAX organisers should be questioned, they should as a well known gaming event be promoting the better face of gaming and NOT perpetuating the awful stereotypes of past years.
That was what got me, and the only reason why I mentioned the panels themselves at all — I was really hopeful that after everything that went down last year and everything that's continued to get more and more visibility throughout this year that the business office at PAX would recognize their need and ability to make a change for the better, and I was naive enough to be genuinely surprised that they hadn't. I'm more sad about it than I'd expected.
Life interferes with gaming. For all of us, everyone of us who sit down to the srs bsns that is an MMO regardless of gender, life interferes with gaming. To have a panel that ignores 50% of the population is wrong/silly/unjustifiable. The title of one of the two panels in question is pure ignorance in action, it furthers misogyny and divisiveness . The other is only exclusionary.
Hopefully Dude learned a lesson — what? it could happen — he's at least changed the title of the panel. To me that denotes someone who is willing to learn. Maybe this rant and all of the others like it accomplished what it was supposed to do.
Only one more question: Why do you want to run an exclusionary panel?
I think at least some small lesson was learned because the panel name *has* been changed; if at the very least this makes some people stop and think before they use "but everybody says it" common phrases like this.
I'm not clear if your question is rhetorical and about "wife aggro" or if it's specific and directed to me? If the latter, having a specific place for a minority group to discuss issues that affect that minority group is not exclusionary. When the default is straight white men, it can be necessary to provide spaces for people who are NOT straight white men.
[...] The Trouble With Wife Aggro: Aro reacts to a panel with “Wife Aggro” in the title appearing on the PAX Prime schedule: “When you title your panel ‘Wife Aggro,’ what you are saying is that this is a place for dudes and that women (unless they’re committed monogamous lesbians from one of a handful of US states or Canada, I guess?) are not invited…” [...]
"Wife aggro" is meant to be a joke, you all need to chill out, seriously. No one thinks wives actually "aggro" on their husbands. Complain about something worth complaining about.
My recent post The Effectiveness of ‘Gimmicks’ in Music
Can you prove conclusively that no one thinks wives actually aggro on their husbands? Because I can prove conclusively that there are people who do, because otherwise this phrase would not exist.
But that doesn't matter, because whether it's a joke or not doesn't change the fact that the term is sexist and exclusionary.
No, I can't prove that, because it wasn't meant to be taken literally. It's like if I said "no one like chocolate milk mixed with pickle juice". Obviously, there's bound to be a few people who do, but the point of the statement is to point out an overwhelming majority.
And by the way, it does matter whether it's a joke or not. Humor is sometimes offensive, that's what makes it funny. I laugh hardest at jokes about groups I belong to (white, male, lower middle class, overweight, atheist). So does anyone else who has a normal sense of humor. Routinely, black people laugh at jokes about black people, old people laugh at jokes about old people, poor people laugh at jokes about poor people. They're funny *because* they're offensive. Making light of injustices committed against oneself is fine, there's nothing wrong with it.
My recent post The Effectiveness of ‘Gimmicks’ in Music
So this is some 101-level stuff, but it's a beautiful day and the kid's asleep so I'm feeling magnanimous.
The reason why "offensive" jokes about straight white men can be funny is because that group enjoys the privilege of power. Those jokes are not used to oppress or harass because by definition in this country they do not suffer systematic and institutionalized oppression.
Additionally your examples all miss a very important point: context matters. A black joke told by a black person to other black people is very different than that same joke told by a white person.
In this the context of this particular panel in this particular place, the phrase/joke/whatever "wife aggro" tells women that they aren't invited because they are the cause and need to be fixed.
Words matter. They mean things. These words mean that I and other women like me don't matter, and that's wrong.
Two things.
1) I, a white guy, tell black jokes to my black friends all the time. And they laugh. Know why? Because they know it's a joke. They also make white jokes, and I laugh. Because they're jokes. I also tell jokes about women to my female friends, and vice versa, and we all have a good laugh. Maybe I'm just lucky to have friends that aren't constantly looking for something to be offended by. As for me personally, I don't enjoy any privilege of power at all. I'm just a regular everyday normal guy. So are millions and millions of other straight white men in the world.
2) You're right – words do matter, and they do mean things. But you're wrong about *what* they mean. Jokes aren't meant to oppress, they're meant to make people laugh. If someone (somehow) is using a wife aggro joke out of context to oppress women, yeah he's doing something wrong. But the guy telling the wife aggro joke isn't at fault, the guy doing the oppressing is. Jokes are just jokes. It's ok to laugh at them.
My recent post The Effectiveness of ‘Gimmicks’ in Music
As I said: CONTEXT MATTERS. You're talking to your friends, about your friends. You have assumedly a long history together. You know the nuances and the mannerisms that create context. You don't, I bet, go seek out a group of black strangers and tell them racist jokes that you might be comfortable sharing with your black friends. CONTEXT. Likewise, this is a group of strangers in a male-dominated, notoriously female-unfriendly space. Maybe it's a joke to their friends; I don't know these men, they don't know me, I don't think it's fucking funny.
I'm not searching out things to be offended about. It's right there. Right there in the title. WIFE. AGGRO. Right there. This isn't a scavenger hunt.
Like I said, this was 101-level stuff, and I'm sorry that you've misunderstood. Here's the thing: yes, you do enjoy the privilege of power because you are a white man. This isn't a bad thing. It's not your fault. There's nothing you can do to change it, because it's the way the world works. But it's THERE. It will always be there. Check out John Scalzi's The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is to break this down more for you.
I just read the article you linked, and it's a bad analogy – because "straight", "white", and "male" are far from the only factors which influence how easy one's life is. For example, I'm also genetically cursed with looks on the the low side of average, I'm genetically predisposed to both alcoholism and heart disease, and contrary to the article, I'm actually bisexual. A healthy, good looking black woman born into an affluent family is going to have far more privilege than me, despite our respective skin colors. Privilege comes from the totality of what we are, not from a few basic traits. But you know what? I don't complain about my disadvantages, because I don't care. Me, you, and everyone else has things that grant them advantages and things that grant them disadvantages. The distribution isn't always perfectly equal, but since it's genetic, there's no point in complaining about it. Instead of pointing out how everyone besides you has all these privileges, why don't you tell them all it doesn't matter, and do whatever the fuck you want in life anyway? Maybe it will be a little harder for you, but life isn't all roses, and in the long run overcoming disadvantages will make you a better person anyway. Think about it – right now, instead of writing posts about white male privilege, you could be practicing programming, or training for the olympics, or something like that. Do you want to succeed, or do you want everyone else to fail?
Anyway, no, I don't walk up to random people on the street and tell racist jokes, but I don't walk up to random people on the street and tell *any* kind of jokes. I leave random strangers alone. But white comedians tell black jokes to audiences with black members (and vice versa). If someone doesn't enjoy the jokes that are being told, fine, they're free to leave. But have you ever seen what comedians do to hecklers? You stand up and complain about something as innocuous as a lame joke, and you get *destroyed*, because no one, especially the person telling the joke, likes people with strong senses of entitlement bitching that things aren't going their way when they could just move on.
My recent post The Effectiveness of ‘Gimmicks’ in Music
If you actually read all of Scalzi's article and THAT was your takeaway, then I'm afraid we have nothing further to discuss.
It's fine if you think I've misinterpreted the article, but refusing to explain my mistake, and refusing to address what I've said, just reflects poorly on you. Shutting down the discussion is never a good idea.
My recent post The Effectiveness of ‘Gimmicks’ in Music
http://derailingfordummies.com/complete.html#educ…
Sorry, but that's not gonna fly. I'm not some little beta "please educate me so I can better learn to respect you" loser. I was arguing my case, and *you* declined to respond to my points. To quote Monty Python, "Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes."
So once again, you're free to respond to what I've said, but refusing to do so means that you forfeit the right to claim an intellectual victory here. If you're ok with that, then so be it. Also, to everyone else: I noticed that my posts are getting minus ratings, while Aro's posts are getting plus ratings. Perhaps some of you comment raters would like to speak up and explain *your* thoughts on the matter?
My recent post The Effectiveness of ‘Gimmicks’ in Music
Look, friend. Your future comments can just sit in the moderation queue until you learn some reading comprehension skills. It is not anyone’s job to ~~~educate you~~~ on your ~~~mistake~~~ and I am not your dancing monkey. I don’t give a shit that you think my failure to continue trying to beat it through your thick white man head that your perspective is perhaps slightly different than that of mine and other commenters here is some kind of moral victory for you; if what you need in order to sleep better on your big fluffy manpain pillows is to tell yourself that you’re ~~~intellectually superior~~~ because some woman on the internet isn’t willing to give up her free time to hold your hand and say the same thing over and over and over and over and over to jump through your tautological hoops, then feel free!
And just so your precious feefees stop hurting, I’ll let you know that all of my comments get a default +1 through IntenseDebate so I don’t have to sit in my own mod queue. Nothing personal. That’s the only reason why I had ratings up in the first place, but now (as with the reply numbers) it seems to be miscounting shit anyway, so I’ll turn it off.
As a reader of Aro's blog, I rated your comments negative because your opinions are hurtful, your debate skills rely on tired tactics that have been debunked in the resources that Aro linked to you, and you will continue to get negative ratings from me until you stop promoting an opinion I find ugly while ignoring the rules of polite debate.
Hope that helps.
Also, Robert, why is learning to respect someone a bad thing?
Dude, the panel is not a woman's close male friend telling jokes about women to them and the women going "oh haha that's funny because I am a cool woman and now this man will use me as an example to represent everyone of my particular identity to an online forum yay". The panel in question is a public Q&A at a convention that, from the way they changed their title, would rather be inclusive than alienating.
Your anecdote about how ~edgy~ your sense of humor is and how ~cool~ your friends are doesn't belong here. If you want my OWN anecdata, it's that people who routinely tell racist and sexist jokes get laughs not because they are being funny, but because their friends are just too polite to really do a tear-down to that person's face. You can't prove people think you're amusing just like I can't prove they actually hate you. It is also a PERSONAL group you are referencing when the problem is about a PUBLIC group that is accessible by more than just your close friends who are oh-so-tough! Do not ever bring up the topic of how a single member of a minority group finds your minority jokes funny, because that story is worthless on this particular table.
The impetus is ALWAYS on the comedian to be amusing, not on the audience to laugh. If this panel at PAX wants to be inclusive, it has to pay attention to the fact that a good chunk of its intended audience felt like its title was alienating. If it wanted to be a dudebros who tell gross jokes panel then it could have been! I mean, good riddance, because then a bunch of people I don't want to associate with would round themselves up into a place where I wouldn't go. The panel has changed its title because someone there recognized 'wife aggro' was going to turn off several people* that maybe they wanted to reach with what they were saying.
*hint! People who are not you, or even similar to you!
As far as your stock arguments go, if you don't like people *gasp* standing up and saying something's not okay, then you can just stay in your house all day with your broadband switched off so you don't have to see it in action. (People peacefully speaking out against accepted norms! How traumatizing! ;_;) Instead of whining about criticism, you too, could be the next great Spanish bullfighter by practicing your cape flips instead of typing on the internet!
Now. Do you see how I just took your exact arguments, and reformatted them to apply to you instead? Stop it. This is bad debate technique, and your opinions are so flimsy that you have to resort to a series of debate faux pas to try and make a point.
Also, unless you want me to be incredibly snarky about the fact that you devote entire blog posts about obvious details that you can observe in youtube videos about random bands, I REALLY suggest you drop the angle that contains "Think about it – right now, instead of writing posts about white male privilege, you could be practicing programming, or training for the olympics, or something like that."
You seem like someone who spends an inordinate amount of time seeking out things to get offended about.
Yes, I totally had to seek really hard to find this and get all offended. I had to search high and low on the publicly posted schedule for PAX Prime and had to hack it with my special hissing feminist snake powers in order to create the presence of this phrase I so abhor. It took long, fruitless hours of scouring the internet to find even just one small thing that belittled, dismissed, and erased me, because I'm not truly happy unless I can rail against being reminded of my place as The Other, as Less Than.
Thank you for playing! Have a nice day.
I’m afraid that “Hissing Feminist Snake Power” is now going to make an appearance in my weekly Exalted tabletop game. +1 Internets for you, Aro.
Unfortunately I can't take credit for that, it's from Hark! A Vagrant. XD
You seem like someone who spends an inordinate amount of time appointing yourself as a grand arbiter of what people should care about.
Actually, actually, he seems like a troll.
(Or is that just optimism on my part? Do people SERIOUSLY think we actually go looking for things to upset us and make us feel hurt and excluded? As though those things aren't already thrust in our faces on a daily basis?)
My recent post …and a partridge in a pear tree.
I think it's a little of column a and a little of column b. XD
Oh, PAX, why you keep making it more difficult for me to enjoy all your goodness with compounding crappiness?
And also, where do I redeem my Derailment Bingo card?
You may redeem your Derailment Bingo card right here for your choice of any number of our fabulous and delicious house brews. Thank you for playing, and if you keep reading along you may well fill out EVEN MORE bingo cards! :D :D
You know what? I never would have approved of a stupid title like that. I understand the rage. It really is stupid. Men can't expect wives and other women to feel welcome in a world where they are constantly equated to a ball-and-chain or a battle axe.
HOWEVER, the way you address men in this article is downright sickening. It only took a few paragraphs of being treated like a mentally handicapped drunken fratboy before I didn't care that your panel was denied and that you were offended by an issue. I am NOT a child, and I'm capable of processing your frustration without being treated like one.
I know there's a definite sense of irony in a man not liking how he is portrayed, but face it, you're not going to see things improve by stooping to the lower levels. I promise you you'll get a much better response and a LOT less backlash by treating your peers with respect, whatever gender they may be. I know a handful of feminists that treat men respectfully, and I would do ANYTHING for them, including changing myself. I wouldn't do the same for the ones peddling hate.
Remember these things and you should be okay:
1. ALL men are not responsible for what SOME men do.
2. Preaching to the choir is fun, but changes nothing. Try not to piss off the people you're trying to change (at least, don't piss them off beyond changeability)
3. Giving us names like "dudebro" make it harder for us avoid terms that are derogatory towards women.
Good luck to you and I hope in the future you're given more consideration at expos like PAX.
Some of my best friends are men, and they totally thought it was hilarious and not offensive at all, so you need to calm down and stop being so oversensitive and quit looking for things to be offended about.
Some of my friends wouldn't be offended by a kitchen joke, but they sure as hell deserve better.
I didn't miss the point. I believe in the cause you're fighting for and I want it to succeed, but it's never going to happen when you address men like they're trash or children.
Okay, so … no.
What you're saying is a variation on the tone argument, and thus I feel no need to fully engage in conversation with you. It is a horrible way to behave, and if you think you are "debating" in "good faith", pro tip: you're not.
What the tone argument is saying is that dudes can say whatever the shit they want, but if I get angry about the bullshit that women go through trying to be a part of this hobby I'm "damaging my cause" because oh noes! the wimmens are mad! those overemotional hysterical crazy wimmens! bitches, amirite?
No, and not just no, but fuck you no. Fuck you. I am going to get angry about this, and I'm going to KEEP getting angry about this, because it's bullshit and I'm fucking tired of playing nicey nice so that straight white dudes don't get their precious feefees hurt.
When you get called out on this shit, you should be hurt. You should get angry about being addressed like you're trash. Because if you're hurt and angry then maybe you will stop fucking doing it, and perhaps speak up when you see other dudes doing this shit.
Sure, getting called names sucks at least it did… in middle school. /faceplant I think everyone needs to chill and remember its just a game. A lot of the talking during games is of course trash talk, So dudes like to be cool and say wife aggro. And chicks like to say guys are idiots. I'm jewish and get poked fun at all the time. Thats all it is poking fun. Not meant to be hurtful. Well in most cases. Anyway, I agree with Reedhawker, No need to be abusive when trying to get your point across, even though it was kind of funny.
No.
Tone argument bullshit is not welcome in this space. Knock it the fuck off.
You are either generalizing all men when you say that reedhawker should "stop fucking doing it", or you are addressing him like trash for no reason. Either way, he is as justified in calling you out on it as you are in calling people out for using the term "wife aggro".
No, I'm specifically saying reedhawker (and you, fellow white dude) should stop doing it. There's no generalization necessary when you are exhibiting the problematic behavior right here in my personal space.
The purpose of the tone argument is to silence and diminish the argument of a marginalized person. In this case, it's straight up textbook sexism: 'calm down, crazy lady.'
I hope that no man wants to have their behavior called out as sexist; however, for that to happen, you need to stop doing and saying sexist shit.
What sexism am I exhibiting by saying that someone is justified in calling you out when you admittedly speak to him like he's trash? The reality is that you have no reason for speaking to us like we're trash – I've never in my life used the term "wife aggro", nor defended it. The only reason you may have is gender stereotyping; assuming that just because we're male, we must be committing this offense.
On top of that, you are making a lot of assumptions about my life when you call me a "fellow white dude". I come from a family of immigrants (the only person in my family to be born in America), and certainly not of any ethnicity that would be considered "white". But of course, you assume that nobody, not even minorities or immigrants, could be marginalized more than you, a white woman of the most privileged nation in the world.
And this bullshit about tone argument silencing marginalized people does not apply here. Neither reedhawker nor I tried to diminish your argument or say it wasn't a valid one. In fact, reedhawker did just the opposite. That doesn't change the fact that speaking down to an entire subset of the population is not OK. Having a valid point does not grant you immunity.
Where was I speaking to him like he was trash? He was whining because his feelings were hurt that I compared the selfish, entitled behavior of the dudebro gamer culture to similar behavior patterns exhibited by a toddler who doesn't know any better. I still maintain that if someone is upset about that comparison, they should perhaps try not behaving that way.
Telling me that people would listen to what I had to say if I were just more polite about it is an argumentative fallacy that is not welcome here in my personal space because it's bullshit, and I will continue calling it out as bullshit. It is silencing here as a man speaking to a woman about her personal experiences in her personal space regardless of what other horrible things are happening elsewhere in the world to people more marginalized than I am (and bringing that up, by the way, is another a common derailing/silencing silencing tactic, so you are super close to a yahtzee bonus, congratulations!).
I get to speak down to "generalized men" here because a) this is my blog b) I can say what I want and c) MEN ARE NOT AN OPPRESSED MINORITY and oh my god if the opinions of one woman could change that holy shit what an amazingly wonderful place the world would be.
And for what it's worth, my apologies for assuming your racial and gender makeup! Your icon appears to show a picture of a Caucasian-appearing dude in a car wearing sunglasses. Easy mistake.
Now: "Where was I speaking to him like he was trash?"
Earlier: "You should get angry about being addressed like you're trash."
Those are your words, so that is what I'm referencing.
Calling out your tone may be a logical fallacy and a bullshit claim if the following were true:
A) He were doing it to debase and invalidate your argument.
B) The only intended significance of your words were for a casual debate.
Neither of those seem to me to be true. Instead:
B) You say these things with the intent on making a change in this world.
A) reedhawker is asserting that your tone makes that change less likely.
If it is true that you are calling out the sexism with the hope that people change, then the reactions of your audience has great significance and is a relevant topic. It is certainly possible to say "Your argument is correct, but you say it in a way that nobody wants to change."
You seek change, but you sacrifice your efforts in favor of petty logical fallacy discussion.
Yeah, sorry, almost six months and over a hundred comments ago some details do begin to slip my mind.
So man, I am so very very glad that I have you here to guide my feeble ladybrain and mansplain my feelings and experiences to me. I don't know what I would have done without you to tell me what I REALLY meant, and explain to me that I really have no right to get angry about the sexist bullshit that is a constant figure in my life.
If only I'd just been nicer; if only my vagina did not provoke such a mean and inhospitable environment; if only I knew my place and shut up and let the mans decide how women were allowed to be a part of their world. Thank you so much, Nick, for showing me the light. Obviously I just must endeavor to be nicer, and then sexism will magically go away. God, why didn't I see it before?
Quite a derailment if I've ever seen one. It's astonishing that someone who loves to toss out logical fallacies against other people uses them so often.
Not once did you actually address or refute anything I said. Instead, it was a steady stream of Straw Man and Appeal to Emotion.
It seems to me that you can't think of any reason why I'm wrong, so you resort to making me look bad by misrepresenting my position (I never said or implied a single one of the things you mentioned) and layering on some heavy sarcasm.
The only thing I need to say to refute what you have said is that YOU ARE EXPLAINING A WOMAN’S OWN FEELINGS AND EXPERIENCES TO HER.
You can’t do this. You just can’t. It’s so incredibly sexist and disgusting and something that men do to women all the fucking time to dismiss their concerns.
The thrust of your argument is that no man will want to stop being sexist when shrill feminist harpies are so MEAN to them about their sexism. There’s no reason to debate that because you are obviously not even trying to engage in good faith.
Fuck off.
Not once did I try to explain your feelings or experiences to you.
If you are referring to me trying to understand your point of view by forming personal opinions, then I am not telling you how you feel any more than you are explaining my own feelings to me with your last sentence:
"The thrust of your argument is that…"
Yes you did, and you are doing it again, right now. Fucking stop it.
It should also be noted that not a single thing that I said is specific to women or feminism. It is a general reference on tone in the context of societal change.
You are the one who has made it specific to females.
Yes, I have made it specific to women because I am a woman, I am speaking about women, and this is my blog wherein I get to say whatever I want.
Additionally, using the scientific descriptor “females” to refer to actual for reals human women as a group is othering and dehumanizing. Don’t do it.
I never once said you can't say whatever you want. You're free to make it specific to women. However, you are implying that I'm the one that made it specific to women with the implications you made in your sarcasm. That's a huge misrepresentation of anything I've said and a perfect example of the Straw Man fallacy.
No, see, this whole post is about women. That’s the point.
Look, I have no idea why you came here and why you are coming across like you have to Zomg Win At Internet Feminism, but you are being tiresome and boring and you are officially disinvited from my space. Go away.
Okay, so you say above that you don't disagree with Aro's fundamental argument that "wife aggro" is a sexist term, and in turn that sexism is bad. I'm going to accept that for the purposes of this post because I'm in a charitable mood today.
So what you're saying is that you understand the problem, you recognize it as a problem, but you refuse to acknowledge or assist with it unless we phrase it nicely. Or, put another way, the problems of sexism that this post refers to are not as important to you as women being nice to you. I'm not putting words in your mouth — this is the logical extension of your previous statements.
Given that making women be nice to you is your primary concern here, I'm not really sure what you expect out of your comments. Or, to put it in the parlance of macros (I bet you're a Reddit reader, yes?): You've come to the wrong side of town, motherfucker.
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That's exactly not what I said.
I never said I refuse to acknowledge or assist with it, nor have I said or implied that women being nice to me is more important.
Making an assessment about how the general populace may react to Aro's tone implies absolutely nothing with regards to my priorities or willingness to assist. You are misrepresenting my position.
And no, I don't read Reddit, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
Here’s the thing: this was not written for the general public. It was written for my personal blog. Different voices are used for different audiences.
Tone argument bullshit is not welcome in this space. I have no idea how many times I have to say it, but apparently at least once more.
Um, but you've clearly chosen to not acknowledge or assist with the issue of sexism, and have instead made your priority lecturing Arolaide about her tone. Ergo, your top priority is making sure women are nice to you, and THEN (perhaps) you will acknowledge the issue of sexism.
Those are your actions. If you felt otherwise, you would act otherwise. There is no other logical conclusion. And given that you are here looking for women to be nicer to you.. well, um.. I suggest some kind of dating site and not the comment section of a woman's blog? Yikes.
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[I am the MOST DISAPPOINTED dudebro, because I came here to DEBATE!!!11 and as we all know there's totally more than one answer to "sexism is bullshit," and debating the bullshit thereof is my total raison d'etre.
Additionally, I still think ignoring a woman's autonomy and consent are totally rad. Just because the owner of this space told me to go away doesn't mean I actually have to, because what a man wants is so much totally more important than what a woman wants.
I'm terrific!]
-mod-edited for clarity
I'm going to say that I really appreciate people calling out things like this. I wish more people would. I can't imagine anyone in a stable or functioning relationship attending this panel. Who thinks it's okay to jokingly put down their spouse to other people?
That said, the doofy husband stereotype is no better than the bitchy wife one. I know that it sucks, because the loudest voices we here in these debates are often the jerks, but I don't think it's okay to just assume all men are idiots because once some were. I know what it's like to be heckled while playing Halo.
But not all men are horrible people, and it's true that using words like 'dudebro' and assuming all men reading your article are slow witted and can't understand the issue. I don't understand why using sexism is a strong tool to combat sexism. I'm sorry, but that's not okay…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7vtyheqPVU (Relevant! And silly.)
Here is the thing: “sexism” is institutionalized, systemic oppression. Men definitionally cannot experience sexism. There is no such animal in these woods. The doofy husband stereotype is not used to oppress or marginalize because the party in power doesn’t marginalize itself. Therefore, “just as bad” is, in fact, not the case.
What you may be objecting to is my writing style, which is full of colorful metaphors and all-caps internets rage by design as a narrative tool. I am sorry you don’t find the humor in it, but you were warned both on my About page and every other post on the blog. :)
Additionally, nowhere in this post do I say that all men are horrible. In fact, I know several awesome dudes, many of whom have responded here on this very post! These dudes know that I am not talking to them, because they are confident in their lack of sexist assholery. Funnily enough, the dudes who HAVE thought I was talking to them are the ones who have exhibited the most douchey behavior, again here in this post! It’s almost like magic.
I'm a woman. I'm not really sure what post you're talking about, but if it's mine, I suppose I should say I'm a humanist, and I believe in equal treatment for everyone. Which means I hate all discrimination, even socially accepted ones like this. (If you are talking about my post, I'm not really sure how I was 'douchey'.)
I'm not going to argue too far on this, because I honestly don't think it's worthwhile to fight with someone who's so sure of such a standpoint and I know I won't change your opinion on it, but sexism is discriminating against someone because of their gender. It isn't ONLY male or female (although in history, women have experienced this more than men). And it hurts both sides when it happens.
I'm sorry that I didn't read your 'about' post. This was linked to me through Facebook and I suppose I am responding to your opinions as you stated them, not as explained to me otherwise. I haven't perused your site or anything.
People who are opposed to feminism are often of that mind because many feminists exhibit these ideas. It is a lesser thing, but it is there. And I'm sorry, but your post was quite negative in that state. You've come off as pretty sexist in your replies to people. Your post is still interesting, but that made me sad since your point is really important and I feel like you have a great pull with people here. You'd come off stronger if you didn't discriminate against that group.
Also, being like 'I have lots of friends who are guys' is just like that one jackass in the group who's like 'I'm totally not homophobic, because I have gay friends' so I'm not touching that.
I really want to stress the fact that I'm not saying this as an attack on you at all. I really like this post, and I'll probably check out the rest of your blog. This particular element of it really startled me.
And lady, I am no skilled lyricist here, I don't give a damn how you write. It's the main idea and how it's executed. :P
Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexism?s=t
Okay so… no.
Sociologically and anthropologically speaking, which are the definitions that tend to be in use in feminist spaces like this one, *isms are institutionalized discrimination and oppression. White USians do not experience racism. USian men do not experience sexism. Period.
What I think you are referring to is "gender bias," but that's still not what's happening here. If you'd like to raise a foofooraw about how Omg Aro Is Biased Against Sexist Assholes, then fine. Feel free! I totally own that, because I am. I do not want sexist assholes in my life. They are not welcome. If, by way of making them feel unwelcome for their sexist assholery this causes them to perhaps rethink their douchery and fucking stop it, then congratulations! I win at life!
Welcome to The Point, population: you.
Sorry, I didn't realize I was in a place where sexism towards one gender was okay, but another was not. I'll stay away from your blog in the future.
And no, I don't accept your narrow definition of what kind of discrimination is okay, and what is not. I don't need a link to some strange wiki about types of arguments or some blanket 'welcome to the point' comment. You clearly have missed mine.
Okay, so one more time: there is no such thing as sexism against men. No matter how much you and other MRA assholes want misandry to exist, it doesn't. It just doesn't. That is not the way the world works.
National Black History Month is not "reverse racism." Women's Studies programs are not "male sexism." Calling out stupid fucking sexist bullshit in the gaming industry and community is not "discriminating against men." Your point seems to be that if I hurt a sexist asshole's feelings by calling him a sexist asshole, my point becomes invalid because OMG DISCRIMINATION. No. Sorry, thanks for playing, we have some nice parting gifts for you.
Here, on your way out, have some nice small words: my point was that I was using irony (which is a particular rhetorical device). "My best friends are women and they think it's fine" has been used OVER AND OVER AND OVER in this comment thread and the world in general, so using this same phrase against a poor sad sexist white man with poor sad sexist white man hurt feelings was more cogent than just saying "WELCOME TO THE CLUB OF MARGINALIZED PEOPLE EVERYWHERE, MOTHERFUCKER," which was admittedly my first choice.
:D great write up. Many thanks for being someone willing to stand up and say "hey that's not right" instead of letting it fly as status-quo in the face of all the peeps that try to derail your point/issue. [Classic: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/complete.html ]
And they changed the name of the panel, thats a good start which wouldn't have happened if someone hadn't said a thing ^_^
It's amazing how many people have told me to stop being angry, because being angry won't ever solve anything and no one will listen to me and bawww bawww hysterical wimmens bawwww….
and yet my getting angry got the panel name changed.
MAGIC. :D
I agree using Wife in the title is exclusionary, although possibly not intentionally so. However I disagree on many of your comments suggesting the term is derogatory or implies immaturity. I use the term wife aggro. or spouse aggro, or hubby aggro. I'm a gay man so it's certainly not a gender discriminate comment. It's because my spouse can fuck my shit up. In game, when something that can fuck your shit up turns their attention on you requiring a response, you shout out "aggro".
He can only do that because I give him the power to do so. His opinions and needs are more important than my game, so when I say, "brb spouse aggro", my gaming friends know that someone more important than them is asking for my time, which I give without hesitation. Pretty much all gamers that I know in a relationship (including gamer couples), use the term in pretty much the same way.
I appreciate your comment and thank you for making it, and I do understand your point, but there is a reason why "but I don't mean it that way" doesn't wash: because there are people who DO.
Every time you use a loaded phrase around others as "just a silly joke" or whatever, you are tacitly approving its use by people who mean it in the most sexist, immature, and dismissive ways possible. Unfortunately, there's no grey area.
This is an amazing post. I'm kinda late to the party, but let me take of my (imaginary) hat to you anyway – I loved the article and I especially love your way of handling the several incidents of Not Getting It in the comments.
Thank you for writing this and thank you even more for being absolutely badass in the comments.
Thank you so much for this, because it's made me happy in my shriveled black heart. <3
There are just only so many times I can take the same bullshit over and over, you know? Especially when it's all on the same page. XD
I totally get wanting to yell at the same old derailment (attempts). Hell, I'd probably have went for the 'This is my space and you just got yourself banned, congratulations'-treatment a lot faster (and less patiently explaining 101-stuff) than you did, so I definitely admire the way you handled this.
And since I kind of fell in love with your blog after reading through all the posts in one afternoon, I'll see whether I can summon the courage to jump in the next time something similar goes on in a comment thread over here. If I don't… well, this lurker will simply have to support you by yelling at her laptop.
Dude, "the lurkers support me in meatpsace" is totally good enough for me. :D :D Welcome to Arotopia!
[...] zugelassen wurde und sich mit den von ihr beabsichtigten Inhalten beschäftigen soll, war sie not amused [...]
Jesus….What a bunch of hypocritical feminist garbage. It seems like I can't go a day without seeing some post about how women/gender roles are marginalized in some way under the banner of equality. As a male, I'd get absolutely torn apart if I raged about how people said insensitive things to me in my life, but the amount of white knighting in these types of blogs is absurd. Perhaps people just don't want to confront the antagonists because it isn't worth it to them.
What you're calling for here is not equality, it's to be put in a special class, protected from all wrongdoing; to be praised for being awesome, but not in any way that can be associated with a "traditional" female gender role. It's the whole I'm special, and unique, and strong, and independent,blah blah blah blah.
The reason that the term "Wife Aggro" exists, is because it happens; it happens a lot, or at least enough that any gamer can know precisely what it references even if they never heard the term before. The fact that some women rage about this stuff all day long, is exactly why women have the stereotype of being irrational, hyper-emotional people. Do you understand that if you just carried it as a banner, then no one would have ammunition against you?
I get it if the term doesn't apply to you, and I guess you have the "right" to be offended by it, but I also have the right not to care about your feelings. Throughout life people will slam you with insults, trying to see if they can get under your skin and make you crack. Apparently, they've won because this sob-story is exactly what people want.
I'm in 100% favor of equality for women & other gender groups. In fact it's my number 1 social issue these days. If we ever get to that point, I'll be very very happy.
However, all of the "advances" women have made towards equality will probably start to go away.
Those amazing women athletes in the Olympics, will now be competing co-ed with their male counterparts – let's see how many get in.
Those awesome tech-jobs you get when a company isn't "diverse" enough to qualify for corporate incentives may be reduced. Take a look at a comp sci program and tell me how many were women. In my case, it was exactly 1%. That means that on average there should be 1 female from my school employed in the tech sector for every hundred men. You might call that an atrocity; I call it math.
Additionally, we can stop parading PMS Gaming Clan around MLG like they are something special, When I used to play with them in the Xbox days, our clan would routinely destroy them, so maybe we should get sponsorship deals to be "pro" gamers too.
If what you really want is to be treated fairly, the answer is simple.: Be good at what you do, grow a tougher skin, and stop expecting handouts (socially, & economically). Once you agree to bear the same burdens, you'll get the same respect, but not any extra.
Congratulations! You're today's lucky winner. Thanks for playing!
[ I am an idiot with deficient reading comprehension skills who is nevertheless grateful for the opportunity to win fabulous prizes for being a sexist asshole. Thanks, Aro! ]
- Mod-Edited for clarity. Have a nice day!
[ I am the MOST DISAPPOINTED dudebro, because if there's anything living at the top of the rape culture food chain has taught me, it's that I have a RIGHT!!!1 to a woman's attention, even in her own personal space, even when she has explicitly said that I am unwelcome. ]
- Mod-edited for length and clarity.
Your creepy concern-trolling sexist bullshit is not fucking welcome. This is MY SPACE, and you were already disinvited a week ago. Pushing my personal boundaries is not edgy or cool; it's fucking gross.
I owe you nothing, and this is the last time I will allow you to engage. My readers already know there's "disagreement," because what you call "disagreement" IS FUCKING SEXISM.
Man why does everyone always bring up the fucking Olympics. I see that as frequently as I see the argument about 'zomg but I hold open doors for people!!! How dare you want equal salary in the work force!'
It's always, "blah blah they're segregated because blah blah hokey pop bio-truths that I didn't actually read the in-depth peer-reviewed papers on myself", but you know what, any woman weightlifter in the Olympics could bench press more weight than 99% of the male population can in America, and this is done while also bucking the world's pathetic little beauty standards and social constraints that say a woman's only worth something if she looks hot doing it. Wha fucking bam. Why the Olympics are such a huge sticking point for people who subscribe to the ol' bootstraps and wimmin-r-evolvd-differnt, I have no idea. Is it because they only see the top times and speeds overall? If so that is horrendously sad. Everyone who gets to that level of athleticism is a complete badass regardless of medals. There are plenty of women Olympians who get better times than men Olympian athletes, it really isn't fair to just point at the gold medal winners and record-setters and say 'Men overall are just physically superior it is biology!!'.
The Olympics argument is so bad. It's not as if these manz ritez types will ever compete in one themselves.
Although I can completely understand how a LONG time marginalized (although very passionate) group like female gamers might take this as yet another slight in a very long list of stereotype perpetuating slights, I think I view it a bit of another way. I think this is for the audience of male gamers at PAX (which I would guess are in the majority at the event – or it least were when I attended last year) and as such there are many of which DO encounter the clumsily named "Wife Aggro." This is for that group to share and discuss the best ways to continue to enjoy the hobby about which you are so passionate while not teeing yourself up for the doghouse. It's not for the men that have wives or girlfriends that either allow, encourage or even share in those passions – those men have what men that don't have that sort of partner desire – hence, a talk about maybe how to navigate your ship into that safe harbor. Just my two cents… worth no more than anyone elses for sure. :)
Yeah, trust me, I do know that not all dudes aren't evil slavering monsters. In fact, I have a Mr. Aro, and he has even commented in this very post! Perhaps you can find him, like Waldo.
The thing is, game culture in general and Penny Arcade's culture in specific is already incredibly hostile to women. So when the Powers That Be at PAX reject every single women-focused panel and yet approve one with a misogynist title (because it is, that's what this whole post is about, that phrase is sexist as hell), I'm not inclined to cut them any more slack. PAX is ALREADY a space for men, BY DEFAULT. Why do they need a specific panel? They don't. That's the thing. Dudes already have the whole place. Why do women have to be continually excluded?
Valid and sound points all. However, I guess their perspective is when you have limited time and limited space you must cater to the audience the already "has the whole place." It is unfortunate that the women's panels were rejected (although I know they aren't ALL rejected as I did see one last year regarding women getting into the industry.) Is it possible that they have tried them to less than stellar attendance and have hence led to limit them? I have no idea, merely just trying to understand the motivation behind the decision.
Yes, last year. They were rejected this year.
Lemme try this another way: PAX's attendees being primarily male is not a GOOD thing. That's a thing they should be actively trying to change. If they continue to cater to only men, if they continue to dismiss women and make them feel unwelcome, then it won't ever change, and that's a terribly unfortunate thing.
As someone who works in the industry, I completely agree – the more the merrier! But if you are running an expo, I guess the broader question becomes what is your mission/goal? Is it to broaden the base? If yes, then this definitely appears counter-intuitive. Is it to serve those that do attend? Then I think this does a better job of that than perhaps a female focused talk. But your point is still well made however it does result in a 'chicken or the egg' sort of sort of scenario – do more females come because there are more things directed towards them OR to more things get tailored for females because there are more females attending?
It's not really chicken or the egg so much as a question of status quo. Is the "default state," where everything is designed for straight white males of a particular age, the world you want to live in? If so, then sexist shit that actively chases women away is totally the way to go!
Right now there is NOTHING that serves the women that ARE attending. NOTHING. "Oh well they can go to Panel X that's meant for dudes, maybe they'll get something out of it anyway," but asking men to do the same thing, even for ONE panel, is too much? That's so sad.
I love this article. I love the way you address it.
And [omg sarcasm time] I love the way the menz are taking it.
OMG YOU ARE BEING SO ROOD. WE AREN'T GOING TO TAKE YOU SRSLY. BC YOURE ROOD.
Tone policing crap, gtfo. It's not like women are harassed playing MMOs or anything. NOT. AT. ALL.
Tone argument bullshit turns me into Madeline Kahn in Clue, I am not even lying. NOTHING makes me angrier. BAWWW BAWWW YOU'RE SO MEAN ABOUT THE SYSTEMIC HARASSMENT AND OPPRESSION OF YOUR GENDER BAWWW BAWWW HURTS MY FEELINGS WHEN YOU CALL ME A SEXIST ASSHOLE BAWWW BAWW
What about the menz, I ask you? What about THEIR feelings? BAWWW BAWWW BAWWW
Also thank you. <3 :D